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楼主: 博英纳言

应该拨开传说的迷雾,还历史真相!

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发表于 2007-4-10 11:28:58 | 显示全部楼层
1368,就是我们的1945!

是的,在今天中国,任何一个被中共所把持的媒体上,你只会看到吹捧元朝初期如何如何“英勇强悍”或者“百战百胜”的东西!

但是,我们还没有忘记,经过了1368又是一段什么样的岁月!

我们也永远都不会忘记的。。。。
发表于 2007-4-10 11:33:53 | 显示全部楼层
正如今天的德国,所谓的新纳粹基本上都是一帮子嘴角没毛的小子,真正当年打过仗杀过人的,没有一个还留恋二战岁月的!

你可以随便找点关于1368年之后的资料,来看看那又是一段什么样的岁月!
 楼主| 发表于 2007-4-10 12:04:24 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 henanhujaa 于 2007-4-10 11:04 发表
蒙古侵华战争的确是一场罪恶的侵略战争,这一点,没有任何疑问!


         是吗?您真的这么看这个问题吗?

        首先“侵华战争”的“华”,您指的是哪个国家或者朝代?

        如果您指的是女真人建立的“阿拉坦”朝(金),还是那个懦弱的小皇帝在杭州建立的所谓“南宋”?

        你知道吗?!金为了统治蒙古草原,无缘无故的残忍的杀害了蒙古人的两位先可汗,而且是在这两位可汗应邀去赴宴的时候,作为使者被杀掉的,手段极其残忍!性质极其恶劣!蒙古人民很愤怒!所以后果很严重!这可是有历史记载的,而且是第三方的历史文献记载,不单纯是蒙古人说的,也不单纯是女真人说的……,这段历史恰恰是汉人的文献记载的!

        至于南宋,也就是说说而已,实际上充其量不过是个流亡政府而已,被金打出了长江以北,蜗居在杭州,不思进取,还日日笙歌,夜夜宴饮,杀害自己的忠良名将,搜刮民脂民膏。嗨!这些就不说了!从根本上讲,宋的两个皇帝被金人虏走了!连传国玉玺都失踪了!怎么能说他是合法的政府呢?一个不合法的政府,也能称为一个国家吗?

        哎吆吆!还“侵华战争”呢!好大的帽子!

        还把蒙古铁骑跟希特勒德国相提并论了!好深奥的寓意!您何不将日本人发动的侵华战争,也拿来与蒙古铁骑一比啊!

        我这个“鞑虏”们的,最没出息、最粗鲁、最没什么文化、最没修养的后人,实在是不懂您这些“高贵典雅,文武双全”的“胡笳”的后人的高明学说!但基本的事实,再粗鲁、再没出息、再没文化、再没修养,也还是要尊重的!
               
        ――朝代的更替,是中国历史上无数次“胜者王侯败者贼”正常结果,不存在所谓“侵华”之类的言论,您得承认吧!您要是不承认,那么唐、元、清这些由非汉族建立的政权就不是中国历史上的“正统”朝代了。那干嘛还高兴的说什么“开元盛世”“贞观之制”?“康乾盛世”?“元朝是我国历史上版图最大的国家”?还使劲的拍什么唐太宗?康熙王朝?辫子戏?搞什么嘛――人家别人家的事,你“胡笳”那么起劲干什么?!不单单是为了挣点广告费吧!那为了什么?耕人家的地,荒自己的田?

        按您的说法推而广之――鲜卑、蒙古、满族必然不是国人了?!国人的朝代更替,怎么能说是“侵华”呢?“侵华”肯定是外国攻打“华”啊?既然鲜卑、蒙古、满族不是国人了,那东北、蒙古地区、西北地区必然就不是“华”的国土了,那不是说:现在的ZF也在“侵胡”了?!也是非正义的了?!那就是掠夺了?!是入侵了?!

       绕来绕去,我这个愚钝的脑袋都晕了,算了,这个“侵华”不“侵华”的,不说也罢!翻翻历史,这个“华”也确实有点能耐――两千来年的时间,他怎么老挨打!而且挨完打就喊:侵华啦!非正义啦!――这是有点尿的人喊的。没点尿的那个喊出来,能把你鼻涕泡笑出来――“儿子打老子,妈妈的!”、“儿子打老子,妈妈的!”

       哎!没办法!没办法!没办法!

       真的没办法!!!!!!
发表于 2007-4-10 12:10:26 | 显示全部楼层
蒙古侵华,同日本侵华,没有本质区别

只不过我们成功了,而日本人失败了

MONGOLS ARE NEVER CHINKS!!!

[ 本帖最后由 henanhujaa 于 2007-4-10 07:09 编辑 ]
 楼主| 发表于 2007-4-10 12:15:08 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 henanhujaa 于 2007-4-10 12:10 发表
蒙古侵华,同日本侵华,没有本质区别

只不过我们成功了,而日本人失败了


呵呵!

原来尾巴在这里呢!

您太有柴了!那是相当的有柴啊!

但这里是个祥和的论坛,这些不合时宜的话题,不谈也罢!

[ 本帖最后由 博英纳言 于 2007-4-10 12:16 编辑 ]
 楼主| 发表于 2007-4-10 12:28:31 | 显示全部楼层
henanhujiaa先生,您的文化水平高,麻烦帮忙翻译这个文章给大家看看好吗?我看到您引用了一些英文著述,应该英文很好的!

我看不懂英文,唉!小学不好学、中学不学好――书到用时方恨少啊!

拜托了――请您一定不要推辞!

There is a perfect article wrote by a famous historian. He compares Mongol Empire and USA on the issue of Iraq .

         Genghis Khan: Law and order

How would four of the greatest war leaders in history have handled Iraq ?
By Jack Weatherford, JACK WEATHERFORD teaches anthropology at Macalester College . He is the author of "Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World."
December 29, 2006

IN HIS FINAL televised speech to the Iraqi people in 2003, Saddam Hussein denounced the invading Americans as "the Mongols of this age," a reference to the last time infidels had conquered his country, in 1258. But the comparison isn't very apt ?unlike the Mongols, the Americans don't have the organizational genius of Genghis Khan.

In the 13th century, Temujin ?better known by his title, Genghis Khan ("world leader") ?headed a tribal nation smaller than the workforce of Wal-Mart, yet he conquered and ruled more people than anyone in history. After Genghis Khan's death, his grandson, Hulegu, further expanded the empire, easily conquering most of the Middle East and achieving the Mongols' aim: the establishment of a trade corridor from Korea on the Pacific to Syria on the Mediterranean , one part of their goal of controlling the world.

So that every warrior knew his place within the struggle, Genghis Khan began each campaign with meetings to communicate to his approximately 100,000 soldiers where and why they would fight. The legal justification for the Mongol invasion of Iraq derived from the reluctance of the caliph of Baghdad to control the Shiite Cult of the Assassins, whom the Mongols accused of attempting to kill their khan.

The assassins operated from a series of fortified mountain camps spread from contemporary Afghanistan to Iraq , and the Baghdad invasion did not begin until the Mongols had eradicated the threat from the assassins and destroyed their fortresses. For the final attack on the caliph, the Mongols assembled a coalition of nations, and as their main army invaded Iraq in two columns from the east and the south, their allies approached from the north and west.

Genghis Khan recognized that victory came by conquering people, not land or cities. In contrast to the Americans in 2003, who sought to take the largest cities first in a campaign of shock and awe, the Mongols in 1258 took the smallest settlements first, gradually working toward the capital. Both the Mongols and the Americans used heavy bombardment to topple Baghdad , but whereas the Americans rushed into the capital in a triumphant victory celebration, the Mongols wisely decided not to enter the defeated ?but still dangerous ?city. They ordered the residents to evacuate, and then they sent in Christian and Muslim allies, who seethed with a variety of resentments against the caliph, to expunge any pockets of resistance and secure the capital. The Americans ended up as occupiers; the Mongols pulled strings, watching from camps in the countryside.

The Mongols also immediately executed the caliph and his sons on charges that they spent too much money on their palaces and not enough defending their nation. They killed most members of the court and administration. The Mongols took no prisoners and allowed no torture, but they executed swiftly and efficiently, including the soldiers of the defeated army who, they believed, would be a constant source of future problems if allowed to live. The first several months of a Mongol invasion were bloody, but once the takeover ended, the bloodshed ended.

By contrast, the American military campaign was quick, with comparatively few Iraqi (or coalition) casualties, but the bloodshed has continued for years. Constrained from decisively dispatching enemies of a new Iraq , the United States has allowed Iraqi terrorists to select who lives and who dies, including women and children, in a slow-motion massacre.

And while the violence continues, the U.S. can't come close to establishing a government that rivals what the Mongols achieved. They exercised a genius for speaking to people in terms that they understood. When conquering Muslims, Genghis Khan always announced that Allah willed the Mongol victory as divine punishment; to resist the Mongols was to defy the will of God.

Just as the Mongols perfected the list of who to kill in a conquered land, they knew whom to reward and how to do it. In Baghdad , Hulegu installed a government under Ata Malik Juvaini, a devout Persian Muslim, who governed for most of the next 20 years and whose writings survive as some of the great scholarly works of the Muslim world.

The Mongols spared anyone with a craft, such as carpentry, writing, pottery, weaving or metal working. They fiercely enforced religious freedom, which created an essentially secular state. In Baghdad , they gave many of the caliph's palaces to Mongol allies for more practical uses. They lowered taxes for merchants and eliminated them for religious, medical and educational professionals. They educated women along with men. For all subjects, they instituted harsh laws enforced equally under nearly incorruptible officials.

Fundamentalist Muslims look back at Mongol secularism as a scourge. But, although U.S. rule in Iraq has produced a constant flow of refugees, particularly religious minorities, out of the country, under Mongol rule Christian, Muslim, Jewish and even Buddhist immigrants poured into the newly conquered Iraq to live under the Great Law of Genghis Khan. It was said that during this time a virgin could cross the length of the Mongol Empire with a pot of gold on her head and never be molested.

By the time of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq , the political achievements of the Mongols had been forgotten, and only the destructive fury of their wars was remembered. Yet under the Mongols ?and the legacy of Genghis Khan ? Iraq enjoyed a century of peace and a renaissance that brought the region to a level of prosperity and cultural sophistication higher than it enjoyed before or after. Any country with a bent for empire could do worse than learn from Genghis Khan.
发表于 2007-4-10 12:50:33 | 显示全部楼层
在那篇为布什的中东政策涂脂抹粉的东西中间倒有这么一段很有趣。。。。赫赫

The Mongols also immediately executed the caliph and his sons on charges that they spent too much money on their palaces and not enough defending their nation. They killed most members of the court and administration. The Mongols took no prisoners and allowed no torture, but they executed swiftly and efficiently, including the soldiers of the defeated army who, they believed, would be a constant source of future problems if allowed to live. The first several months of a Mongol invasion were bloody, but once the takeover ended, the bloodshed ended.


所谓的“The first several months of a Mongol invasion were bloody”究竟是个什么概念呢?

Many historical accounts detailed the cruelties of the Mongol conquerors.

    * The Grand Library of Baghdad, containing countless precious historical documents and books on subjects ranging from medicine to astronomy, was destroyed. Survivors said that the waters of the Tigris ran black with ink from the enormous quantities of books flung into the river.

    * Citizens attempted to flee, but were intercepted by Mongol soldiers who killed with abandon. Martin Sicker writes that close to 90,000 people may have died (Sicker 2000, p. 111). Other estimates go much higher. Wassaf claims the loss of life was several hundred thousand. Ian Frazier of The New Yorker says estimates of the death toll have ranged from 200,000 to a million.

    * The Mongols looted and then destroyed mosques, palaces, libraries, and hospitals―grand buildings that had been the work of generations―were burned to the ground.

    * The caliph was captured and forced to watch as his citizens were murdered and his treasury plundered. The caliph was killed by trampling. The Mongols rolled the caliph up in a rug, and rode their horses over him, as they believed that the earth was offended if touched by royal blood. All but one of his sons were killed.

    * Hulagu had to move his camp upwind of the city, due to the stench of decay from the ruined city.

赫赫。。。。拨开传说的迷雾,历史真相就是“Mongol invasion were bloody”

类似网站还很多,比如说 http://www.historyofjihad.org/mongolia.html

自己看看去,呵呵。。。

[ 本帖最后由 henanhujaa 于 2007-4-10 06:01 编辑 ]
发表于 2007-4-10 13:11:45 | 显示全部楼层
我曾经同今天在剑桥大学的一个德国校友谈起老家邻村家谱上的的篾尔乞氏脱脱,就是那个被公认是元朝时期最好的一位丞相的脱脱。

当时我直接告诉他----那个丞相一生中最大的政治污点就是曾经下达过一道命令屠城徐州

那个老兄当时的反应是“不可思议的残暴”

然后我又加了一句,“那是另外的一个时代。。。我不想因为他是我们邻村好友的祖宗就为他辩护,但是那的确是另外一个时代”

赫赫。。。。他对之也深表赞同

唉,其实那个老兄家里以前有人是Wehrmacht的,也就是纳粹正规部队,主要在法国与荷兰打仗

对于我们来说,历史真相就是----我们曾经作为比日本人更为高明也更为凶恶的军队进攻并占领中国,后来1368年中国人起义,我们由于种种原因回不去了,就只好隐姓埋名继续留在中国

内蒙古在今天的中国版图之内,并不能改变蒙古侵华战争是一场罪恶的侵略战争这一史实

正如东普鲁士在今天的波兰境内并不能改变德国侵略波兰是一场罪恶的侵略战争的这一史实那样

[ 本帖最后由 henanhujaa 于 2007-4-10 06:17 编辑 ]
发表于 2007-4-10 13:32:13 | 显示全部楼层
Die Bevölkerung Chinas zählte um 1290 offiziell 60 Millionen Südchinesen, 10 Millionen Nordchinesen und 2 Millionen Mongolen und Semu. Eine frühere Zählung von 1235 hatte 8,5 Millionen Menschen in Nordchina ergeben, die enormen Zahlen der Heimatlosen und Versklavten abgerechnet. Im Verhältnis zur Zeit der Jin-Dynastie hatte Nordchina also einen dramatischen Bevölkerungsrückgang zu verzeichnen.
发表于 2007-4-10 16:28:17 | 显示全部楼层
蒙古人是应该仔细了解一下别人对自己的看法.
发表于 2007-4-10 18:07:56 | 显示全部楼层
那本书去书店想买没买到,得去,西单或者王府井书店买去。
但作者是人文学家吧,不是历史学家。
发表于 2007-4-10 18:29:26 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 木图 于 2007-4-10 18:07 发表
那本书去书店想买没买到,得去,西单或者王府井书店买去。
但作者是人文学家吧,不是历史学家。


   www.dangdang.com 有出售,多出5元给你送到家~~
发表于 2007-4-10 19:13:17 | 显示全部楼层
以蒙古人现在的心态,经济也不可能搞好.
发表于 2007-4-11 05:48:21 | 显示全部楼层
嘿嘿
这个世界本来就是弱肉强食
不想被吃掉就让自己变的强大
发表于 2007-4-11 08:38:57 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 henanhujaa 于 2007-4-10 11:14 发表
仅仅是中共执政以来,出于统战目的,也是为了炮制所谓的“中华民族”,才没有对那段历史的真相过多地做文章!

因此,听了五十多年的所谓“一代天骄”或者“英勇豪放”的中共宣传,内蒙人也有一些飘飘然起来了! ...

?????
仅仅是中共近50多年来的吹捧与宣传,才让你们变得飘飘然起来的。。。。。。。


  蒙古族的那段历史是<中共近50多年来的吹捧与宣传>宣出来的?
发表于 2007-4-11 08:50:22 | 显示全部楼层
至少在清代还是可以骄傲一下的,到了民国政府的时候就开始侵略蒙古了,到了中共开始正面宣传,这个倒是真的。反正明朝的时候屠杀蒙古人的历史,书里就有记载。
发表于 2007-4-11 12:24:12 | 显示全部楼层
提示: 作者被禁止或删除 内容自动屏蔽
发表于 2007-4-11 12:30:43 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 Temujin 于 2007-4-11 12:24 发表
清代被满洲人踏在脚下,北元就此灭亡,漠西那个不驯服的准噶尔部还被灭族,骄傲啥呢?


看了两本书又来得瑟来了?

张家港的蠢货!:@

管你丫屁事啊?
发表于 2007-4-11 12:42:32 | 显示全部楼层
清代没有什么值得蒙古人骄傲的,别人给了一点小小的物质利益,就甘心去做物质的奴仆,那么蒙古这个民族还是一个心智不成熟的幼童阶段.
发表于 2007-4-11 12:51:45 | 显示全部楼层
我说过了,蒙古人善于自己打自己,都想做王,结果被满清利用,让蒙古人自己打自己,满人得利。但是当时怎么说也是满清依靠了蒙古的力量,满蒙是基本平起平坐的。所以蒙古人在当时还是很有一点地位的。咋说康熙他奶奶,也是个蒙古人不是?满蒙联姻几百年,满清王朝的一半血统都是蒙古血统。

到了现在彻底是奴才了。
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